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Old Stager



Member Since: 12 May 2010
Location: Staffordshire
Posts: 120

United Kingdom 2010 Range Rover Sport TDV8 HSE Zermatt Silver
P400E PHEV battery charging on the move

I'm almost at the point of confirming my order for a RR Sport hybrid, to replace my 2014my HSE Dynamic, but I have one big issue that could be a deal breaker. Apparently, there is no way of getting any charge into the battery other than by plugging it in to the mains (apart from a small amount of regenerative braking) - is this correct? I also have a BMW i8 and, in sport mode, that will put 75% into the battery in about 20 miles. I've tested a Porsche Cayenne E-Hybrid and that has a specific charging mode - even my son's Golf hybrid does! When I tested the Sport hybrid, the battery was fully depleted after about 40 miles in auto hybrid mode, so that means that at around 40 miles into every journey, my 400bhp Sport will become a 300bhp Sport! I know there is a battery hold mode, but that is not the same thing - and apparently when it's in hold mode, there is no power available from the battery to supplement the combustion engine.


I hope someone on here can tell me that I'm wrong - otherwise I may well be leaving the brand, which would be a great shame. 14.5MY SDV6 HSE Dynamic Indus silver/lunar/ebony 20" wheels, InControl, full-size spare, electric tow bar, adaptive xenons, adaptive cruise control, auto main beam assist. Gone: TDV8 HSE; Zermatt silver/ebony, 19" off road alloys, active diff, particle filter, tow pack (it was fun) BMW 730D SE (great car, sadly missed). Ford Focus RS mk2, Ultimate green, lux pack 2, bluetooth. The start of my mid-life crisis.
IN THE GARAGE: BMW i8 - the mid-life crisis continues and it's great fun.

Post #570408 Tue Dec 04 2018 8:56am
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EssexRRS



Member Since: 04 Jun 2018
Location: Essex
Posts: 22

United Kingdom 

I'm afraid you are mostly correct Old Stager. There is no charging option on the RRS, and initially I was concerned too, until I thought about the logic of charging on the move. A friend of mine has a Passat GTE and his charges the batteries, but the mpg plummets, so this got me thinking about the logic of burning more petrol to create battery power....to then save petrol. It makes no sense, not least because in the process of transforming petrol energy into electric energy, there is wastage. So I'm actually fine with no charging on a car that remains predominantly petrol powered. Obviously the argument is slightly different on a car that is mainly electric power like the i8, but it's a safety thing generally.

I've run my 400e for nearly 7000 miles now, and although the electric does run out, and the petrol engine does kick in, I can honestly say I notice little drop off in power (from 400 bhp to 300). Even when empty, the batteries still charge from coasting and braking so in reality there is always a bit of boost when needed. I don't floor the throttle constantly enough to notice when this boost drops off, but it's still plenty quick enough when needed. That's just my personal experience, but everyone has a different driving route and style. My advice is to try the 400e for a long test drive because it takes a while to get used to the concept after a SDV.

Post #570409 Tue Dec 04 2018 9:12am
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Tim in Scotland



Member Since: 30 May 2005
Location: Driving along in my automobile
Posts: 16886

2013 Range Rover Sport SDV6 HSE Stornoway Grey

Does the RRS not have regenerative brakes?
My Countryman PHEV has a “save” mode and regenerative brakes, if I’m running in Save mode (say on a long journey) then the car will recharge the battery from the petrol engine but the petrol engine is not used as a mobile generator, it drives the front wheels and excess energy is diverted to the HV battery. The regenerative brakes are adjustable for the amount of gen they make, it depends on the gearbox setting mode and the drive system selected. Petrol consumption isn’t bad but then it also isn’t what you would expect from a supermini or small petrol engined estate - in petrol only but recovering energy to the HV battery i’m Getting around 45mpg. I can recover about 75% of the battery capacity from flat ready for EV mode on a 60 mile trip down the motorway, if therewasn’t So much uphill on my regular drive to Edinburgh I would probably recover even more energy.
My car’s system is basically a BMW i8 but where the range extender engine drives the front wheels and are not a big battery charger.

Old Stager - I know it’s a big drop down from an RRS, but ask your local BMW/Mini dealer for an extended test drive of a Countryman PHEV or the 2 Series equivalent (which are even rarer than the Countryman PHEV). The Mini and 2 Series take 3 hours to charge on a 13amp socket but as you have an i8 already you will have a home charger in which case it will take less time to charge. You still have a 1.5ltr 3 cylinder turbo petrol to keep you going when the HV battery charge is depleted too. Build quality is superb and provided you don’t load too many options onto it the price will keep you well below the £40,000 luxury car threshold.......... Unfortunately as it’s a PHEV there is no government money back of £2500 any longer for buying a low emissions vehicle. 2018 Melting Silver Mini Countryman PHEV - a test car before Seeing if I could go to totally Petrol/Diesel free motoring
2015MY Corris Grey SDv6 HSE Dynamic, the best car I have ever owned, totally reliable only a cou0le of rattles in 3 years, now no longer in my care
Also in my garage is a 1996 TDi300 Defender 90 County HT made into a fake CSW

Post #570410 Tue Dec 04 2018 9:46am
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timhum



Member Since: 06 Mar 2017
Location: Suffolk
Posts: 128

United Kingdom 

Tim,k
Are the problems with your car now resolved?
Tim Tim
RRS HSE 3.0TDV6

Post #570468 Tue Dec 04 2018 11:45pm
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Tim in Scotland



Member Since: 30 May 2005
Location: Driving along in my automobile
Posts: 16886

2013 Range Rover Sport SDV6 HSE Stornoway Grey

Tim, the car is running fine, last week Portuguese and Swedish owners on the forum reported that their cars had been in the service bay and are now working fine.............. I can do everything to set up off peak charging and conditioning/ remote climate control setting from the smartphone app but still cannot change from instant charge to timed charge (ie to charge in off peak periods at home) on the dashboard controller, i’m waiting for the dealer’s phone call! I can charge it fine on a public charger and it self charges fine as I drive in full petrol mode if the engine isn’t running on a high load, it also regenerates on over run and under braking ie it recovers what would be wasted energy to top up the hv battery. 2018 Melting Silver Mini Countryman PHEV - a test car before Seeing if I could go to totally Petrol/Diesel free motoring
2015MY Corris Grey SDv6 HSE Dynamic, the best car I have ever owned, totally reliable only a cou0le of rattles in 3 years, now no longer in my care
Also in my garage is a 1996 TDi300 Defender 90 County HT made into a fake CSW

Post #570480 Wed Dec 05 2018 8:45am
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ilard



Member Since: 20 Aug 2010
Location: London
Posts: 618

United Kingdom 2011 Range Rover Sport 3.0 TDV6 HSE Lux Nara Bronze

I think the original question is a good one - those who prioritise performance over economy, and who do not want diesel (lifestyle, regulations) and so see the P400e as a compromise to the 5.0SC. I am trusting EssexRRS in that, in practice, the regenerative arrangement when used with a regular driving style means the absence of direct charging from the ICE is of minor consequence, but I can see it might never be a true replacement for SDV8 or 5.0SC performance.

This all points back to battery capacity, really. What we need is a solution that at least doubles it which I think means waiting for the all-new platform. RRS TDV6 HSE Lux (2011MY)... Nara Bronze / Arabica

Post #570485 Wed Dec 05 2018 9:08am
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Tim in Scotland



Member Since: 30 May 2005
Location: Driving along in my automobile
Posts: 16886

2013 Range Rover Sport SDV6 HSE Stornoway Grey

Or the advent of smaller and more efficient batteries! Although as these days i’m no longer driving the length of the UK 3 or 4 times a year the more recent higher range EV’s like the Renault Zoe, Tesla’s and Jag IPace have enough range (160-300 miles) to suit my needs as well as any PHEV and rule out any sort of range anxiety. One disappointment recently was to find that the much acclaimed Nissan Leaf new model which was claimed to have a range in excess of 250 miles was found in real life to have only 130 miles range in normal motoring by several motoring magazines........ so economy claims for EV’s can be just as misleading as they are for petrol and diesel powered cars.
Hopefully by the time the new Defender comes on sale in 2020 battery tech will have moved even further on and I will be able to buy the PHEV version with a range per charge in excess of 100 miles......... I’ll keep dreaming but I have a deposit on that version anyway. 2018 Melting Silver Mini Countryman PHEV - a test car before Seeing if I could go to totally Petrol/Diesel free motoring
2015MY Corris Grey SDv6 HSE Dynamic, the best car I have ever owned, totally reliable only a cou0le of rattles in 3 years, now no longer in my care
Also in my garage is a 1996 TDi300 Defender 90 County HT made into a fake CSW

Post #570486 Wed Dec 05 2018 9:19am
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jimbg



Member Since: 29 Jan 2013
Location: By the River Dart
Posts: 816

2013 Range Rover Sport SDV6 HSE Orkney Grey

Yes battery technology is the key to this. I am looking at the Ipace, Audi Etron SUV and Mercedes EQC to be potentially my next car.

I am not convinced about the quoted distances and will be be demanding a full road test before jumping ship.
The Ipace is being reported to be only getting a range of 200 miles to "empty" according to users and some magazine tests, far short of the claimed 285 miles.

I think until the solid state batteries are here we will not see decent range figures. 2017 Discovery 3.0 HSE Silicon Silver Nimbus interior and a few extra toys

2013 HSE Black, Orkney Grey, Ebony Seats and Ivory Interior SOLD

Post #570487 Wed Dec 05 2018 9:58am
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Tim in Scotland



Member Since: 30 May 2005
Location: Driving along in my automobile
Posts: 16886

2013 Range Rover Sport SDV6 HSE Stornoway Grey

The IPace has recently had a battery software update to get the range up to about 230 miles - still short of the claimed range.
One thing I have learned in 6 months of electrically assisted motoring is that battery range is hugely variable depending on the weather. It’s not just that you want to run heaters and lights/wipers more when it is cold or ac in warm weather but even though my car has a battery heating and cooling system the purely electrically powered EV range in cold weather rarely exceeds 16 miles of the 26 miles it is claimed to have. In hot weather it is the same, reduced range if it is too hot outside because the battery efficiency falls of as the temperature rises! As the vast majority of my round trips these days are 30-50 miles and there is a free charging point available at my destinations it isn’t too much of a problem for me. I have also learned the lesson of using the cabin pre-heater for park heating when plugged in before starting a journey - to warm the cabin on a frosty morning after driving off reduces the range by about 5 miles even though heating is instant from starting off it uses a lot of electricity - the park heater is essential to extend trip lengths in EV mode. At least I can fall back on 220 miles of petrol engine range when the battery charge us all gone! A neighbour of mine has just chopped in his 1st generation Renault Zoe EV with a maximum range of 48 miles for the latest version......... he’s been getting a minimum 140 miles out of a charge even in frosty weather and can get to visit his friends 35 miles away and back without having to use the special homecharger he had installed at his expense at their house! The part-exchange value on his old car though was worse than anything an RRS owner would experience - a 2.5 year old 8,000 mile Zoe that cost him £18000 new returned £4000 as a part exchange against the new model with improved batteries. 2018 Melting Silver Mini Countryman PHEV - a test car before Seeing if I could go to totally Petrol/Diesel free motoring
2015MY Corris Grey SDv6 HSE Dynamic, the best car I have ever owned, totally reliable only a cou0le of rattles in 3 years, now no longer in my care
Also in my garage is a 1996 TDi300 Defender 90 County HT made into a fake CSW

Post #570488 Wed Dec 05 2018 10:17am
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ghunkin



Member Since: 18 Feb 2018
Location: Nottingham
Posts: 30

United Kingdom 

Had my P400e for just over a month now.
I was never expecting 31 miles of EV range - even the charging system gave up on this folly after two days and has since never reported more than 21 miles EV range available at 100% charge capacity.

Reality however is that my commute to work and back rarely sees me exceed 13 miles of EV range from a full charge.

The harsher reality is that the big RRS in stop start traffic, on dark mornings, when the aircon is needed to keep the inside of the windows clear and wipers are needed for the outside will not get me to work and back on electric.
Which is why I bought it.

Dealer has checked the car out and after a full charge they managed 22 miles in EV mode.
On a mostly straight, flat dual carriageway in the middle of the day with light traffic. (Surely they know it tracks all journeys??)
When I got the car back, the lights were off, the aircon was off and the radio was off.

The car actually slows going downhill on anything but the steepest of hills due to how strong the regenerative braking is.
I have to use the accelerator to stop it slowing down and p****ing other drivers off - no wonder the EV range is so poor.

If I use the pre-conditioning function, this drains the battery by 10-14% - even when plugged into the mains.

Charging time is twice the brochure claims of 2.75 hrs using a dedicated 7.2kw charger.

Dealers view on all of this is that the car is operating normally and all figures are stated as 'up to'.
I would appreciate knowing if anyone else is having the same experience?

Post #570949 Tue Dec 11 2018 9:47pm
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Tim in Scotland



Member Since: 30 May 2005
Location: Driving along in my automobile
Posts: 16886

2013 Range Rover Sport SDV6 HSE Stornoway Grey

Your experiences reflect exactly my issues with a different make of PHEV, although at least mine charges in the time claimed at home on a 13amp plug and on a public charger I can get a full 100% charge in 45 minutes (I have a much smaller battery capacity than the RRS too at 7.5kW). Claimed electric range of mine is 26 miles but (and regardless of whether the car is left outside or in my garage) at this time of the year I see 14 miles range more than I see 18 let alone 24-26 miles which means i’m using the back up petrol engine a lot more than I expected. I think you are not alone with your RRS and the problems are the same regardless of car manufacturer as the problem is the way that temperature effects battery efficiency - even the MuddyMobile will have cold weather distance issues. Pity those who bought an I-Pace with expected 310 miles electric range and are getting less than 200 miles and they have no back up ICE. 2018 Melting Silver Mini Countryman PHEV - a test car before Seeing if I could go to totally Petrol/Diesel free motoring
2015MY Corris Grey SDv6 HSE Dynamic, the best car I have ever owned, totally reliable only a cou0le of rattles in 3 years, now no longer in my care
Also in my garage is a 1996 TDi300 Defender 90 County HT made into a fake CSW

Post #570957 Wed Dec 12 2018 9:48am
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ravingmad



Member Since: 23 May 2013
Location: Billericay Essex
Posts: 327

United Kingdom 2013 Range Rover Sport SDV6 Autobiography Santorini Black

My experience on range is similar on the Wife's outlander PHEV.
In summer we were getting 30 miles on electric, now with the colder weather this has reduced to nearly 20 miles/
So the colder temperature's seem to reduce battery power by roughly 30%.
I am not ready to adopt a full electric car yet, not until better battery technology is available. MY13.5 Autobiography, Santorini Black, Privacy Glass.

Post #570962 Wed Dec 12 2018 2:08pm
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