China will allow foreigners in only for so long as it takes them to get the technology to do it themselves. At that point they will just say "thanks, bye" and do it themselves for less. They don't seem to worry about copyright/trademarks/patents when making things for their internal market.

And factories can be moved. C.f. Rover, SAIC and Nanjing. 2012 SDV6 - it's missing a couple of cylinders
2008 TDV8 - it was a labour of love and is much missed

Re Jonwitts -
Don't kid yourself; JLR will design and manufacture prototypes (that's the bits that aren't farmed out to 'design houses' in the cheapest location, for the biggest market.

RRSTDV8 wrote:

I wonder how much of the economic migration would disappear if we stopped funding Brits to sit on their arses at home all day instead of working? These people should be doing to jobs that the economic migrants do. That would be doubling beneficial for the economy. That would play in to the red-top readers' minds, anyway.

Actually, I think the much bigger picture is that we, in the West, have dug ourselves a very large hole since the Second World War. That hole is called consumerism and we have embraced it fully. The result is that we have wanted to spend more on trivia (i.e. stuff not essential to life e.g. food, housing) and this driven a spiral of wage increases. These wage increases drove manufacturing out of the UK and in to countries with lower employee costs. Ever increasing additional costs (holiday entitlement, sickness benefits, NI contributions, safer working conditions etc.) have added to the impetus on business to use foreign workers where possible. Add a Govt forced to increase taxation to pay for a huge social health and welfare system and the pressure can not be contained.

Our parents sowed the problem, we have fed it and now we, along with our children, will have to reap the painful harvest.

There is a bitter irony in us sitting here using our computers to chat, on a forum for luxury cars, about how terrible it is that the system is falling apart because of cheap labour etc elsewhere in the world when it is our desires that have fed that cheap labour.

The reality is that the UK is doomed to slide ever further in to decline unless we wake up to the fact that we need to pay people, everyone, much less. And in order to do that we must all accept a lower standard of living (at least in terms of luxury goods). We either get massively cheaper to employ or the country dies a slow death.

I hate to say it but I have to agree. We've seen this pattern before when Mercedes-Benz introduced the C-class and then the A-class. My parents owned Mercedes for many years and and there was an obvious dive in quality when they went on a cost saving exercise, particularly with the manufacturing of the ML-class in Alabama. So much so that my mother moved over to Lexus. Given JLR's current inconsistencies with quality there is a risk that several years of Chinese manufacturing could earn JLR a reputation akin to Skoda's (pre-VAG ownership). Then again, TATA's purchase of JLR wasn't the death knell that much of the motoring press suggested it would be.

I agree with RRSTDV8 on both the wider economic issue and particularly on the intellectual property argument. This is the vehicle that a Chinese court decided looked nothing like an X5.

http://www.bmwblog.com/2008/12/19/bmw-lose...-x5-clone/

Now Saudi Arabia

http://www.whatcar.com/car-news/jaguar-lan...ove/264787

I hope they don't go the way of all the other uk factories  Wanted a Series 2 LR since childhood but previously owned MY16 Disco Sport HSE TD4 Auto, MY13 RR Sport Black Edition TDV6 Auto, MY10 RR Sport HSE TDV6 Auto, 2007 Freelander 1 Freestyle TD4 Soft Top, 2009 Freelander 2 GS TD4 Auto, 2007 Freelander 2 GS TD4, 2004 Disco 2 Metropolis Auto, 2002 Disco 2 GS, 2000 Freelander 1 SE TD4 SW

Still hoping for a S2 one day!

Last edited by muddywheels on Wed Dec 12 2012 4:23pm. Edited 1 time in total

JLR aren't British and haven't been for years. Being put together from components produced elsewhere in the world barely fulfils the concept of a "British product" so making panels in Saudi Arabia doesn't change much. Building the Defender out there might raise a few eyebrows but, if it means a reliable vehicle, most people won't care.

The British car industry died for a very good reason - the stuff it produced was generally rubbish and was generally poorly put together. Judging by the high proportion of lemons coming out of LR over the years, they haven't learnt all of the lessons from history yet. The reliability of LR products is laughable for something that costs in excess of £50k.

I very much doubt my next vehicle purchase will be LR (or any other "British-made" car) because I've grown bored of the amount of time the thing is at the dealer being fixed. Fabulous vehicle, poor ownership experience. 2012 SDV6 - it's missing a couple of cylinders
2008 TDV8 - it was a labour of love and is much missed

Some good news. I hope a healthy percentage of these jobs is in quality control

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-21003670

As Honda in Swindon are dumping 800 jobs it is good news but not enough for the economy as a whole... 2012 SDV6 - it's missing a couple of cylinders
2008 TDV8 - it was a labour of love and is much missed

saimans wrote:

RRSTDV8 wrote:

I wonder how much of the economic migration would disappear if we stopped funding Brits to sit on their arses at home all day instead of working? These people should be doing to jobs that the economic migrants do. That would be doubling beneficial for the economy. That would play in to the red-top readers' minds, anyway.

Actually, I think the much bigger picture is that we, in the West, have dug ourselves a very large hole since the Second World War. That hole is called consumerism and we have embraced it fully. The result is that we have wanted to spend more on trivia (i.e. stuff not essential to life e.g. food, housing) and this driven a spiral of wage increases. These wage increases drove manufacturing out of the UK and in to countries with lower employee costs. Ever increasing additional costs (holiday entitlement, sickness benefits, NI contributions, safer working conditions etc.) have added to the impetus on business to use foreign workers where possible. Add a Govt forced to increase taxation to pay for a huge social health and welfare system and the pressure can not be contained.

Our parents sowed the problem, we have fed it and now we, along with our children, will have to reap the painful harvest.

There is a bitter irony in us sitting here using our computers to chat, on a forum for luxury cars, about how terrible it is that the system is falling apart because of cheap labour etc elsewhere in the world when it is our desires that have fed that cheap labour.

The reality is that the UK is doomed to slide ever further in to decline unless we wake up to the fact that we need to pay people, everyone, much less. And in order to do that we must all accept a lower standard of living (at least in terms of luxury goods). We either get massively cheaper to employ or the country dies a slow death.

Very well put, agree whole heartedly.

+1

While the above post by RRSTDV8 is correct, Since the Allies flattened Germany and Japan and subsequently invested heavily in the reconstruction program, both D and JPN ended up being formidable industrial nations with new technologies , whereas we were left with ageing shipyards and car industries! I dread to think where we will be in 20 years time, as just about every privatised company in the UK is now foreign , and able to take huge profits out of the country without paying much corporation tax back into the economy! We will soon be the poor man of Europe , and probably the world once china really starts to get going.
Cheers
Dave MY10 TDV6 SE (debadged ), Santorini Black, Flappy paddles, Privacy Glass, 20" Stormers, Mudflaps!

Gone: a comprehensive list of imprezas and a Merc ML AMG